The Cow
In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
[2:256]
Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God hath grasped the most trustworthy hand- hold, that never breaks. And God heareth and knoweth all things.
* v.256 : Compulsion is incompatible with religion; because 1) religion depends upon faith and will, and these would be meaningless if induced by force; 2) Truth and Error have been so clearly shown up by the mercy of God that there should be no doubt in the minds of any persons of goodwill as to the fundamentals of faith; 3) God’s protection is continuous and His Plan is always to lead us from the depths of darkness into the clearest light.
* Hand-hold: something which the hands can grasp for safety in a moment of danger. It may be a loop or a handle, or anchor. If it is without flaw, so that there is no danger of breaking, our safety is absolutely assured so long as we hold fast to it. Our safety then depends on our own will and faith; God’s help and protection will always be unfailing if we hold firmly to God and trust in Him.
(Translation and interpretation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali)
For those who wish to be further enlightened, read this.
Wednesday, May 30, 2007
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
69 comments:
Well put Marina, well put...
A(nother?) nail in the coffin for 'bangsa Malaysia'?
I hope not, though I may be thinking differently at present.
"Good night, and good luck."
I'm curious to know how this then fits in with the whole concept of "apostasy", or the fact that people who were born into a Muslim family do not have the freedom of religion?
With all due respect to Islam and its adherents, I find the decision on Lina Joy's case appalling.
it is no point asking a person to have their IC stating Islam when in reality they are not muslim anymore......what is the purpose of it?
let Allah be the judge....
Datin, allow me to share my opinion
"Let there be no compulsion in religion"
Yes, nobody can force anybody to embrace Islam.
As you and i know, nobody can force anybody to join the military.
But, once you sign in, you are bound to follow the rules and regulations of the military. No excuse.
And, apostasy is the most prohibited act in Islam - as much as our parents prohibit us to disown them, as much as this country prohibit us to commit an act of treason.
My sincerest Salam to you, your mom and dad.
There was hoohaa in Aghanistan when a men converted to Christian then all quiet when he went to Europe.
Can I request Lina Joy to 'hijrah' too so that thing will be quiet again without any 'tension' thingy around ?
Bakaq,
Does 'signing in to Islam' include being 'born' into it?
Because we can only decide to 'embrace' something when we're cognitively mature enough to make a decision for ourselves - for most things, at 18 years old / 21 years old.
If something is good, it should attract, it will naturally grow in numbers.
Dear MM,
While the article referred to having no compulsion for embracing Islam, I gather you are obliquely referring to the Lina Joy case, where she was denied from removing Islam as her religion on her IC. The article, while enlightening, however did not address the issue of apostasy -- which I think is the crux of the matter there.
And somewhere down the line, the country, especially the Muslims, must have the gonads to look into the issue of apostasy head on. Hopefully, rationally.
The case itself, though, is about the NRD's jurisdiction and whether they are able to remove the word "Islam" from her IC.
Dear Datin,
Allow me to address the military analogy by the penarik beca..While IN the military one is bound by the code of conduct.It is thoroughly unfair to continue to force those who quit to still conform to military rules..
As a PAS member I think Mr Bakaq, should agree that we'd rather not have a munafik amongst us, so might as well we let them reveal themselves..NO?
Hawaichee, could you kindly send me your email via this comments page? Thanks.
I have been reading a book by Reza Aslan "No god but God" where on page 119 he discusses how the Riddah Wars under Abu Bakr "... did have the regrettable consequence of permanently associating apostasy ... with treason...".
and ".. even today there are some Muslims who continue to make the unsubstantiated and un-Quranic assertion that the two sins ... deserve the same punishment: death.... It is this belief that has given the Ulama in some Muslim countries the authority to impose capital punishment on apostates, by which they mean anyone who disagrees with their particular interpretation of Islam."
If the author is incorrect - can someone point out the basis for associating apostasy and treason?
Thank you
Dearest Datin (kira respect macam respect kakak la..., if you allow me), allow me to answer anon at 4.44 pm, May 30 and the gap
Dear anon,
i salute you for your sound argument.
My goodness, i have to seek help from my daughter to answer you!
"Kak Long, you are now 20 plus and you should be allowed your freedom of choice. Do you think Islam is acceptable?" i asked her.
To my surprise, she shouted at me, “Apa abah cakap ni!”
Her mother thought she was too much. “Apa buat kat abah macam tu!”
“Tak. abah ni tanya yang bukan-bukan. Cakap merapu-rapu”.
Anon,
My daughter is a born Muslim. To the best i can remember, i have never force her to accept Islam.
Yes, i admit. i taught her about Islam and that is the best i can do.
You said “it will naturally grow in numbers”. i beg to differ. Number does not necessarily reflect quality. Our Prime Minister won the Kepala Batas seat with a huge majority. Do you think he is good?
the gap said: As a PAS member I think Mr Bakaq, should agree that we'd rather not have a munafik amongst us, so might as well we let them reveal themselves..NO?
i am not a PAS member, the gap dear. i am just one of the ordinary supporter of Fasal 5 Perlembagaan PAS. You can check about that Fasal 5 in the Internet, if you want to.
Since, i think, you are a Muslim, i am sure you know better than me about amar ma'ruf nahi munkar (enjoin what is good and forbid what is evil). It is an obligation. Since i am a Muslim, i have no choice.
Marina
I supposed when you posted this sura, you are trying to say that the decision of the Federal Court was wrong.
I know it is hard for a Muslim to take sides on this issue.
The Federal Constitution, the secular law, versus one's the pull one's religion. That was the dilemma of the two judges who ruled against Lina Joy.
Many muslim bloggers are shying away on this issue. Yet at the bottom of their hearts, they know that the rights of Lina Joy had been trampled through and through.
They should come out and make a statement, after all, they are quite vocal on other issues. Why not this one, as it is of public and national interest.
I am thinking of this: Is Sunni's conversion to Shi'a or vice versa considered apostasy too?
While some may see the ruling of Lina Joy case as a 'victory' to Islam, it may have adverse impacts. Of course, Muslims in this country are overwhelmingly Sunnis, so we may not feel them (the impacts). But you've read the news in Iraq, haven't you?
BTW Datin,
If you wish to reach wider audience, you should get someone to translate your posts to Bahasa.
the losers dont even know they r the losers.
some muslims believe they have won, but in fact do they really think tht a person who renounce the religion will be a good thing to still be part of a religion she doesnt belief in?
islam is the big loser with tht decission.
non muslims will fear converting (im a convert myself), the muslim pool will consist of ppl tht are muslims for namesake living their lives as non muslims and giving islam a bad name
whos the loser now?
To make a decision that is so clearly against human rights in this day and age but people who are supposed to be educated is appalling.
When I read about this decision, it made me feel sad for Malaysia - and I must admit it also makes me feel very anti islamic.
I'd better go spend some time in the coffee shop to remind me that most muslims in Malaysia aren't extremists.
Isn't it a hollow victory for those who rejoice at the Federal Court's decision? Hollow, because, Lina Joy is Muslim in form, but not in substance.
It's a chilling to hear that Islam, or any other faith for that matter, be described as 'joining the military'. What about those drafted into the military not by choice, but by law? (i.e. those born Malays must be Muslims)
What about the hypocrisy of being called a believer of a particular religion, but not following it in your heart, conscience and action? But isn't this precisely what those who celebrate the Federal Court decision are rejoining over. Form but not substance. Kosong.
Lina Joy can only be commended for her honesty and bravery in sticking to her conscience and the faith of her choice. If there be any punishment for her, let it be in the afterlife with her Maker. Now, she should leave Malaysia and start afresh elsewhere.
thanks bakaq for your reply (and also for asking your daughter)! haha although you freaked them out a little.
I think it's a valid point that most of us tend to grow up embracing what our parents/family have always believed in, partly because religion and ethnicity/culture are so closely intertwined.
But we can't deny the fact the new and upcoming generations will be more and more exposed to external influences by the mere fact that we talk to people outside the family and we (hopefully) have friends of different ethnicities/beliefs, and there's the growth of information availability eg the internet. The postmodernistic society is also one where we are bombarded with choices choices choices and we're used to picking what's most appealing.
So I think a strong religion needs to be one that is inherently solid, and leaders of the faith be confident enough that people will still choose it given a choice, and not just choose it because there's no choice.
cheers
pk (aka anon @ 4.44pm 30 May)
How can a rational person believe that God, who did not compel anyone to believe, allow us the right to compel others and force them to believe ?
If God has granted us the merit of freedom, those who wants to believe is allowed that right and so too those who wants to disbelieve.
One thing that history has taught us is that you can never repress anyone's religious belief. The Roman threw Christians to lions, the Spanish Inquisition tried to force Jews and Muslims to convert and in both instances it failed in its objective.
Marina,
What is your opinion about views such as that of "BigDog" who had this opinion:
Now I have a position. I am against the Pro-Article 11 movement and ALL the cases that relate to that. In fact, I loathe the 'diabolical' attempt to belittle and demean Judges who made the ruling against these group's interests. Why? This Kurang-Ajarness of the minority is very clear now. They narrowly define, manipulate and hide behind the Constitution of the Federation of Malaysia and not respect the interests of the majority.
As I remember it, the law exists to protect the interests of the majority. Now that the Chief Justice has interpreted the Constitution of the Federation of Malaysia, it becomes a precedence.
Full text of his 'Chief Justice: "No one can embrace or leave religion as one fancies" ' posting available at:
http://bigdogdotcom.wordpress.com/2007/05/31/chief-justiceno-one-can-embrace-or-leave-religion-as-one-fancies/
Ellen said, I'd better go spend some time in the coffee shop to remind me that most muslims in Malaysia aren't extremists.
Ellen,
You really remind me of my sanctuary, Restoran Thaqwa in Gombak here, where i can have my teh tarik with Jimmy, Ron and Uncle (an Indian and i really dont know his name) - to mention a few.
We can have our chit chat about almost anything under the sun like brothers.
Those caring buddies are closer to my heart than... (i dont want to say). And, i never give a damn about ther religion.
Thank you dearest Datin for allowing me the space here.
.
Everyone is a loser in this country.
What can you expect when the "sitting pretty with midget brain" cj cannot even dispense justice by and according to the Constitution?
What hope is there? This is something to dread about unless ...
oA
.
Setuju dengan bakaq aka penarik beca. As for MM,please, please, please learn more about our religion. This is not the first time for me to read your article which create more confusion about Islam. Pi la ambik course kat UIA ka, kat ustaz mana-mana ka, apa ka....untuk mendalami lebih lagi. Kalau tak pasti , toksahlah dok tulih merapu lebih-lebih lagi bab agama ni!!!!
Mohon maaf andai terkasar bahasa.
Wassalam.
I hope Lina Joy resolve her issue with the NRD soon.
Setuju dengan bakaq aka penarik beca.
As for MM, please, please, please learn more about your religion. This is not the first time for me to read your articles which create more confusion regarding Islam. If this is not your field, stop writing about this.
Wassalam.
Setuju dengan bakaq aka penarik beca. As to Kak MM, please, please, please learn more about your religion. This is not your first confusing article/statement about Islam. If unsure or not knowledgeable enough in this field, don't write about Islam. Infact you should know that during your father's time, he had the Constitution amended to include an additional clause, namely Article 121(1)(A), which states that the civil court has no jurisdiction on syariah matters.
I guess your father understands better.
Wassalam.
bakaq, that still does not answer the question on your point whereby one is bound to the laws of religion once he/she "signed" in.
Taking example of your daughter has no meaning at all. Your daughter does not represent every son and daughter born to muslim parents; not with Lina's case here. And what if.. one day, your daughter choose Lina's path?
My point here is... (1) Your statement of "signed in" is not valid, as Lina Joy had never signed in to any religion.
(2) If you quit military, they will just show you to the gate. Military rules no longer apply to common citizen.
Your arguments are flawed.
Correction: "Lina did sign up for ONE religion. And that was Christianity.
NOw what religion is not the point here. The point here is, she..in her right adult mind, DECIDED to embrace another religion.
If one day in future, she decides to embrace Buddhism, the same scenario applies.
On top of that, she had never "signed in" to Islam. She was born into it. Imagine you are being told to embrace BUddhism now because we've backtracked your history and found your true parents to be Buddhist. What say you?
to those (including the majority) who argue that murtads should go to the shariah court to get apostasy certificate, please read the following state legislation CRIMINALIZING apostasy - by words or action (which means your lawyer also would get caught).
EVEN BEFORE your application is heard/decided, u AND YOUR DARING LAWYER could very well b fined and locked up in the ‘pusat bimbingan’ already. your application would never see the light of day.
think about it - how would u feel if i visit your (muslims’) house n ask for pork & wine? u think the shariah court would happily issue such certificates??
so, the majority of FC r basically asking lina joy to BANG HERSELF ON THE SHARIAH COURT'S WALL.
either the lina joy decision must b overturned, or all the criminal provisions below (and others) must b declared UNCONSTITUTIONAL as infringing Article 11(1).
--------------------------
Melaka
http://www.esyariah.gov.my/portal/page?_pageid=185,79674&_dad=portal2&_schema=PORTAL2
ENAKMEN KESALAHAN SYARIAH ( NEGERI MELAKA ) 1991
6/1991
Bahagian BAHAGIAN IV KESALAHAN - KESALAHAN LAIN
Bab
Seksyen 66 - Percubaan murtad.
(1) Apabila seseorang Islam dengan sengaja, sama ada dengan perbuatan atau perkataan atau dengan cara apa jua pun, mengaku hendak keluar dari Agama Islam atau mengisytiharkan dirinya sebagai orang yang bukan Islam, Mahkamah hendaklah, jika berpuashati bahawa seseorang itu telah melakukan sesuatu yang boleh ditafsirkan telah cuba menukarkan iktikad dan kepercayaan Agama Islam sama ada dengan pengakuan atau perbuatannya sendiri, memerintahkan orang itu supaya ditahan di Pusat Bimbingan Islam untuk tempoh tidak melebihi enam bulan dengan tujuan pendidikan dan orang itu diminta bertaubat mengikut hukum syarak.
(2) Jika seseorang yang telah diperintahkan supaya ditahan di bawah subseksyen (1)-
(a) bertaubat dengan serta-merta, Mahkamah hendaklah, setelah mengesahkan taubatnya itu, membebaskan orang tersebut; atau
(b) jika orang itu pada bila-bila masa semasa dalam tahanan telah bertaubat, Pegawai Penjaga hendaklah melaporkan perkara itu kepada Mahkamah dan Mahkamah hendaklah memanggil orang itu dan setelah mengesahkan taubatnya itu, hendaklah membuat satu perintah untuk membebaskannya.
(3) Pegawai Penjaga hendaklah menyerahkan satu laporan kemajuan berhubung dengan orang yang ditahan itu kepada Mahkamah pada setiap minggu.
(4) Pusat Bimbingan Islam hendaklah diwartakan sebagai Pusat Tahanan di dalam Warta.
Perak
http://www.esyariah.gov.my/portal/page?_pageid=185,79653&_dad=portal2&_schema=PORTAL2
ENAKMEN JENAYAH (SYARIAH) 1992
3/1992
Bahagian BAHAGIAN IV KESALAHAN BERHUBUNGAN DENGAN MARUAH AGAMA DAN INSTITUSINYA
Bab
Seksyen 13 - Perbuatan atau perkataan murtad.
Seseorang Islam yang dengan sengaja, sama ada dengan perbuatan atau perkataan atau dengan cara apa jua pun, mengaku hendak keluar daripada Agama Islam atau mengisytiharkan dirinya sebagai orang yang bukan Islam adalah melakukan suatu kesalahan mempersendakan Agama Islam dan hendaklah, apabila disabitkan, dikenakan hukuman denda tidak melebihi tiga ribu ringgit atau penjara selama tempoh tidak melebihi dua tahun atau kedua-duanya.
Terengganu
http://www2.esyariah.gov.my/esyariah/mal/portalv1/undangbm.nsf/maintrg/DDEEE5F6293AF1FC48256F85000279D3?OpenDocument
ENAKMEN KESALAHAN JENAYAH SYARIAH (TAKZIR) (TERENGGANU) 2001
7/2001
Bahagian BAHAGIAN II KESALAHAN YANG BERHUBUNGAN DENGAN ‘AQIDAH
Bab
Seksyen 38 - Takfir.
(1) Tertakluk kepada subseksyen (2), mana-mana orang yang mengatakan atau menohmahkan dengan perkataan, sama ada secara lisan atau bertulis, atau dengan isyarat atau gambaran tampak, atau dengan apa-apa perbuatan, aktiviti atau perlakuan, atau dengan menganjurkan, menaja atau membuat perkiraan bagi apa-apa aktiviti atau selainnya dengan apa-apa cara, bahawa mana-mana orang yang menganut agama Islam atau orang yang tergolong dalam apa-apa kumpulan, golongan atau perihalan orang yang menganut agama Islam-
(a) adalah kafir;
(b) tidak lagi menganut agama Islam;
(c) tidak sepatutnya diterima, atau tidak boleh diterima, sebagai menganuti agama Islam; atau
(d) tidak mempercayai, mengikuti, menganuti atau tergolong dalam, agama Islam,
adalah melakukan suatu kesalahan dan apabila disabitkan boleh didenda tidak melebihi lima ribu ringgit atau dipenjarakan selama tempoh tidak melebihi tiga tahun atau kedua-duanya.
(2) Subseksyen (1) tidaklah terpakai bagi-
(a) apa-apa jua yang dilakukan oleh mana-mana Mahkamah atau pihak berkuasa agama yang ditubuhkan, dibentuk atau dilantik oleh atau di bawah mana-mana undang-undang bertulis dan yang diberi kuasa untuk membuat atau mengeluarkan apa-apa keputusan mengenai apa-apa perkara yang berhubungan dengan agama Islam; dan
(b) apa-apa jua yang dilakukan oleh mana-mana orang menurut atau mengikut apa-apa keputusan yang dibuat atau dikeluarkan oleh Mahkamah atau pihak berkuasa sedemikian, sama ada atau tidak keputusan itu adalah secara bertulis atau jika bertulis, sama ada atau tidak ia disiarkan dalam Warta.
Selangor
http://www.esyariah.gov.my/portal/page?_pageid=185,79639&_dad=portal2&_schema=PORTAL2
ENAKMEN JENAYAH SYARIAH (SELANGOR) 1995
9/1995
Bahagian BAHAGIAN II KESALAHAN YANG BERHUBUNGAN DENGAN ‘AQIDAH
Bab
Seksyen 6 - Takfir.
(1) Tertakluk kepada subseksyen (2), seseorang yang mengatakan atau mengaitkan melalui kata-kata, sama ada secara lisan atau tulisan, atau dengan isyarat, atau dengan gambaran tampak, atau dengan apa-apa perbuatan, kegiatan atau kelakuan, atau dengan mengelolakan, menganjurkan atau mengaturkan apa-apa kegiatan, atau selainnya dengan apa-apa jua cara, bahawa mana-mana orang yang menganuti agama Islam, atau orang-orang yang tergolong dalam mana-mana kumpulan, kelas atau perihalan orang yang menganuti agama Islam-
(a) adalah orang kafir;
(b) telah berhenti menganuti agama Islam;
(c) tidak patut diterima, atau tidak dapat diterima sebagai menganuti agama Islam; atau
(d) tidak mempercayai, mengikuti, menganuti atau tergolong dalam agama Islam,
adalah melakukan suatu kesalahan dan apabila disabitkan boleh didenda tidak melebihi lima ribu ringgit atau dipenjarakan selama tempoh tidak melebihi tiga tahun atau kedua-duanya.
(2) Subseksyen (1) tidaklah terpakai bagi-
(a) apa-apa jua yang dilakukan oleh mana-mana Mahkamah atau pihak berkuasa agama yang ditubuhkan, dibentuk atau dilantik melalui atau di bawah mana-mana undang-undang bertulis dan yang diberi oleh undang-undang bertulis kuasa untuk memberikan atau mengeluarkan apa-apa fatwa atau keputusan tentang apa-apa perkara mengenai agama Islam; atau
(b) apa-apa jua yang dilakukan oleh mana-mana orang menurut atau mengikut apa-apa fatwa atau keputusan yang diberikan atau dikeluarkan oleh Mahkamah atau pihak berkuasa agama itu, sama ada atau tidak fatwa atau keputusan itu adalah secara bertulis atau, jika bertulis, sama ada atau tidak disiarkan dalam Warta.
Johor
http://www.esyariah.gov.my/portal/page?_pageid=185,79709&_dad=portal2&_schema=PORTAL2
ENAKMEN KESALAHAN JENAYAH SYARIAH 1997
4/1997
Bahagian BAHAGIAN V KESALAHAN PELBAGAI
Bab
Seksyen 31 - Takfir.
(1) Tertakluk kepada subseksyen (2), mana-mana orang yang mengatakan atau menohmahkan dengan perkataan, sama ada secara lisan atau bertulis, atau dengan isyarat atau gambaran tampak, atau dengan apa-apa perbuatan, aktiviti atau pelakuan, atau dengan menganjurkan, menaja atau membuat perkiraan bagi apa-apa aktiviti atau selainnya dengan apa-apa cara, bahawa mana-mana orang yang menganut agama Islam atau orang yang tergolong dalam apa-apa kumpulan, golongan atau perihalan orang yang menganut agama Islam-
(a) adalah kafir;
(b) tidak lagi menganut agama Islam;
(c) tidak sepatutnya diterima, atau tidak boleh diterima, sebagai menganuti agama Islam; atau
(d) tidak mempercayai, mengikuti, menganuti, atau tergolong dalam, agama Islam,
adalah melakukan suatu kesalahan dan apabila disabitkan boleh didenda tidak melebihi lima ribu ringgit atau dipenjarakan selama tempoh tidak melebihi tiga tahun atau kedua-duanya.
(2) Subseksyen (1) tidaklah terpakai bagi-
(a) apa-apa jua yang dilakukan oleh mana-mana Mahkamah atau pihak berkuasa agama yang ditubuhkan, dibentuk atau dilantik oleh atau di bawah mana-mana undang-undang bertulis dan yang diberikan kuasa untuk membuat atau mengeluarkan apa-apa keputusan mengenai apa-apa perkara yang berhubungan dengan agama Islam; dan
(b) apa-apa jua yang dilakukan oleh mana-mana orang menurut atau mengikut apa-apa keputusan yang dibuat atau dikeluarkan oleh Mahkamah atau pihak berkuasa sedemikian, sama ada atau tidak keputusan itu adalah secara bertulis atau, jika bertulis, sama ada atau tidak ia disiarkan dalam Warta.
Kedah
http://www.esyariah.gov.my/portal/page?_pageid=185,79716&_dad=portal2&_schema=PORTAL2
ENAKMEN KANUN JENAYAH SYARIAH 1988
9/1988
Bahagian BAHAGIAN II KESALAHAN-KESALAHAN
Bab
Seksyen 24 - Takfir.
(1) Mana-mana orang yang mengatakan atau mengaitkan melalui kata-kata, sama ada bertutur atau tulisan, atau melalui isyarat, atau melalui gambaran yang boleh dilihat atau melalui apa-apa perbuatan, kegiatan atau kelakuan, atau dengan mengelola, menggalak atau memperaturkan apa-apa kegiatan, atau selainnya dengan apa jua cara, bahawa mana-mana orang yang menganuti Agama Islam, atau orang-orang yang tergolong dalam mana-mana kumpulan, kelas atau perihalan orang-orang yang menganuti Agama Islam :
(i) adalah orang kafir, atau
(ii) telah berhenti menganuti Agama Islam, atau
(iii) tidak patut diterima, atau tidak dapat diterima, sebagai menganuti Agama Islam, atau
(iv) tidak mempercayai, mengikuti, menganuti, atau tergolong dalam Agama Islam,
adalah bersalah atas suatu kesalahan dan boleh, apabila disabitkan, dikenakan hukuman denda tidak melebihi lima ribu ringgit atau dikenakan hukuman penjara selama tempoh tidak melebihi tiga tahun atau kedua-duanya :
Dengan syarat bahawa seksyen ini tidak boleh dipakai bagi:
(a) apa-apa perkara yang dilakukan oleh mana-mana pihak berkuasa Agama yang ditubuhkan, dibentuk atau dilantik oleh atau di bawah mana-mana Undang-undang bertulis dan yang diberikan oleh Undang-undang bertulis dengan kuasa memberi atau mengeluarkan apa-apa fatwa atau keputusan atau apa-apa perkara mengenai Agama Islam;
(b) apa-apa perkara yang dilakukan oleh mana-mana orang menurut atau mengikut apa-apa fatwa atau keputusan yang diberi atau dikeluarkan oleh pihak berkuasa Agama itu, sama ada fatwa atau keputusan itu adalah secara bertulis ataupun tidak, atau jika secara bertulis, sama ada ianya disiarkan dalam Warta ataupun tidak.
(2) Mana-mana orang yang mentafsir secara menyeleweng mana-mana fatwa yang dikeluarkan oleh pihak berkuasa Agama adalah melakukan suatu kesalahan dan boleh, apabila disabitkan, dikenakan hukuman denda tidak melebihi lima ribu ringgit atau dikenakan hukuman penjara selama tempoh tidak melebihi tiga tahun atau kedua-duanya.
i was taught that this verse was intended for new converts i.e. you cannot force people to convert, and therefore does not apply in this case.
Correct me if I am wrong but in the Holy Quran a Muslim is not suppose to get intoxicated, gamble nor surpress the rights or life of another.
Yet, you still see Muslims smoking everywhere, many still visit the 4D shops nearby and they still surpress the rights of another in the name of religion.
Isn't there something wrong with this picture?
-The Man Who Sold The World-
Folks, I truly appreciate all your comments, in particular Bakaq who sets an exemplary tone in this discussion. I think this bodes well for calm and rational debate in our country (at least on this blog).
My intention is certainly not to confuse Muslims who I am sure are not easily confused about their religion. My intention is to confuse those who think that Islam is a religion that oppresses, suppresses, discriminates and is not compassionate.
Peace!
[Had your Lord willed, all the people on earth would have believed. So can you (Prophet) compel people to believe?] (Yunus 10: 99).
Hantu Gigi Jarang
Ok, I have something to say which might result in me getting raw eggs thrown at me, but I think I'll go ahead and say it any way...
Firstly, I am a firm believer that as a human being, we have freedom of choice, so long as that freedom does not harm another person, cause riots or threaten the security of society...
I am also a firm believer that there should be no compulsion in religion, and that as civiliased human beings, we should be allowed to choose what religion we choose to practise...
Having said all that however, I must say, that in some way, the decision made was a correct one (Ok, here is where the rotten eggs come)...
Let me point out one important point, a point which I am very sad in admitting:-
Malaysians have not come far enough to accept that religion is something personal. Religion is essentially a personal relationship with God, and really, the only person answerable to anything (even apostasy) is the person himself...Not the ulama, not the NRD, not the judges, not the constituion...Religion, is between you and God...
And sadly, we have not come far enough (although I really want to believe otherwise) to accept that...
If we have, there will be no need for there to be an official religion in the country or the world for that matter...
To come back to the matter at hand, since we have not come that far in our mentality, to allow Lina Joy (I completely empathise with her situation, so don't get me wrong) to 'convert' to another religion is asking for an upheaval in our country...
(I am a Baha'i, and Baha'i's are still persecuted and prosecuted in many parts of the world like Iran, Egypt etc)
No offence to all Muslims (I hope you won't take offense), but IF you allow Lina Joy to renounce Islam, you will be setting a precedence like no other...
You will start a possible riot from Muslim fanatics who will not accept it as a human right, but a challenge and disrespect to Islam, and there will be possible bloodshed and confrontations, all in the name of Islam...
I reiterate: We have NOT come far enough as a society to allow this...
But I strongly believe the time WILL come when Malaysians will unanymously stand up and say: "Yes! Let us choose our religion for ourself"...
And I strongly believe that the time will come when the other Lina Joy's of Malaysia will get to choose and be allowed to choose...I believe the time will come when forcing one to practice a certain religion because of how and to whom a person was born to will be looked upon with scorn...
The time will come, but sadly, the time is not now...
Sincerely,
Daphne Ling, 21-years-old, and hoping to see a better Malaysia...
Lina Joy had lost in her appeal.
Even so, there is no human power that can force Lina Joy to return to her religion. To me she is still an apostate. Except, there is no recognition from the Law. This decision will not refrain who wants to become an apostate in discretion.
Remember the Hudaibiyah Covenant (between the Muslim and the Musyrik? The analogy is pretty much the same.
If people from the Musyrik (non-muslim) Camp come to Muslim Camp, they are to be returned. But if there are people from the Muslim camp who run to side on the Musyrik Camp, the Holy Prophet Muhammad SAW agreed that they should remain in the Musyrik tent. Many Sahabats (Prophet’s friends) however disagreed to the particular condition.
It is simple rationale. If a Muslim commits apostasy, he/she is already out of the religion and he/she is not needed to come back to Islam.
By Law, Lina Joy has failed to drop her religion status from her identity card.
It also implies that by Law, no apostate can drop the status of his/her previous religion from his/her identity card.
So, by Law, this will curb any Muslim’s intention to convert out in the open.
For the rest of the matter, this will not hinder any party who want to commit apostasy in discretion.
Translated from:
<< Nisah Haron Online
Let us be sensible in our thinking. No one can force others to believe what they choose not. Our country will be celebrating it's 50th year and that's a long period. We ought to mature in our thinking and just accept what others believe. No compulsion. Whether what they believe is right or wrong, that's between him and his Creator. If Lina choose to leave her 1st religion that she was born into, let it be. She's mature enough to decide for herself what is best. Whether right or wrong, who are we to judge? We are not God. Only He can do so. So let's be rational and sensible. It applies to all religion and faith.
Anon at 8.04 am, June 1 said
bakaq, that still does not answer the question on your point whereby one is bound to the laws of religion once he/she "signed" in.
Taking example of your daughter has no meaning at all. Your daughter does not represent every son and daughter born to muslim parents; not with Lina's case here. And what if.. one day, your daughter choose Lina's path?
My point here is... (1) Your statement of "signed in" is not valid, as Lina Joy had never signed in to any religion.
(2) If you quit military, they will just show you to the gate. Military rules no longer apply to common citizen.
Your arguments are flawed.
i agree my aguments are flawed.
i also agree military rules no longer apply to common citizen and i would like to add if you do not run away from the military. If you do, the military police will go after you.
Can anybody tell me, did Lina Joy "signed out" at the Syariah Court? i'm sorry, i really dont know.
As far as i know, the Syariah court was not adamant about the status of Nyonya Tahir.
Anybody else other than Nyonya Tahir?
Datin if I may answer to Daphne Ling.
When I first read all the comments, I was a litle on the angry and disgusted side.
But after reading all the comments I actually agree with you.
Thrw rotten eggs at you? No way. I am proud that someone so young can say things so simply, make sense, and with real respect for all partys. You make a very important point and that Malaysians are not ready for this, so thank you for saying things even when you were scared people will throw eggs!
I am a Muslim and I do not take offense but appreciate your views that were given very respectfully.
Sorry Datin to answer through your blog.
Di sertakan ringkasan keputusan Lina Joy daripada Persatuan Peguam Syarie Malaysia (PGSM). Panjang sikit tapi berbaloi kalau
kita faham isu yang sebenar supaya kita sedar dan boleh menyokong usaha yang
seterusnya kearah kebaikan anak cucu kita supaya kejadian yang sama tidak
berulang.
Kes ini bukan kes murtad sahaja tapi kes memertabatkan mahkamah syariah
seperti yang termaktub di dalam Constitution yang meletakan Malaysia sebagai
negara Islam. Apabila tok nenek orang Cina dan India menerima taraf
kerakyataan Malaysia semasa merdeka, mereka telah menerima hakikat bahawa
Malaysia sebagai negara Islam, yang majority nya beragama Islam dan sebelum
nya tanah tanah jajahan Melayu adalah di bawah kuasa Raja Raja Melayu yang
beragama Islam. Di dalam Constitution juga mengatakan agama lain daripada
Islam boleh dipraktik sesama mereka tetapi tidak boleh disebarkan. Masalah
timbul apabila orang orang bukan Islam mencampuri urusan agama kita di
tambah pula dengan sokongan orang Islam Liberal Sekular etc(kalau tidak
masakan Si Lina Joy boleh termakan dgn boyfriend Kristian nya dan dalam
affidivit nya menyatakan ia telah di kristian kan oleh seorang paderi !
Dalam affidivitnya Lina Joy juga meyatakan beliau tidak pernah memperaktik
Islam which is blatant lie as sebab Mak Bapak dia bole testify).
Ringkasan keputusan Lina Joy
1. Kes Lina Joy bukan cerita pasal murtad semata-mata macam orang awam
paham. Bila saya sembang, boleh kata ramai sebut pasal murtad sahaja. Kalau
lina joy menang, ramai orang boleh murtad senang-senang. Lepas tu isu lain
tak berapa diketengahkan. Isu murtad Lina Joy dan mana-mana orang yang ada
hasrat dan plan untuk murtad sebenarnya kesan yang datang selepas isu
pertama diperjelaskan iaitu status mahkamah syariah dan penghormatan kepada
bidangkuasa mahkamah.
2. Ada yang sebut Syariah Ct di negara ini pun bukannya Sya Ct yang
sebenarnya yang berbidangkuasa atas keseluruhan hukum Syariah, jenayah,
muamalat, munakahat, akhlak dan sebagainya. Itu betul tetapi kita bercakap
tentang kapasity yang ada di zaman ini di negara kita sekarang ini. Yang
mana lepas merdeka, Perlembagaan menjadi rujukan tertinggi dan dalam tu
diletakkan Islam berada di bawah bidangkuasa negeri2 dan setiap negeri boleh
tubuhkan Mahkamah Syariah yang boleh bicara dan putuskan beberapa perkara
sahaja yang disenaraikan. Senarai tu dipanggil Senarai Negeri yang sebut
pasal wasiat, zakat, nikah kahwin, kesan lepas cerai, hibah, jenayah yang
termasuk dalam kategori lawan hukum Islam seperti tak puasa, berkhalwat dan
lain-lain.
3. Tetapi tak ada senarai pasal ekonomi, kes jual beli cara Islam,
takaful islam, bon Islam, share Islam semua duduk dalam bidangkuasa mahkamah
Sivil. Termasuklah urusan jenayah duduk bawah Mahkamah Sivil. Jadi dengan
bidangkuasa yang kecil, Sya Ct dianggap Mahkamah Negeri dan tak setanding
(at par) dengan Mahkamah Sivil.
4. Apatah lagi kedudukan Peguam2 berbeza. Peguam Sivil ada Legal
Profession Act yang membenarkan penubuhan satu badan mengawasi dan jaga
kebajikan mereka dipanggil Bar Council. Tetapi Peguam Syarie tidak ada badan
dan tidak ada Akta sebab ia dikatakan berkaitan dengan negeri-negeri. Sebab
itu Peguam Sivil boleh masuk kesemua Mahkamah Sivil di seluruh negara tanpa
had selepas call to the bar. Tetapi peguam syarie beramal mengikut negeri
dan lesen yang diperolehi. Ada Peguam Syarie yang ada lesen di Wilayah
tetapi tiada lesen di Kelantan dll. Oleh kerana itu, PGSM ditubuhkan ke arah
mendesak penggubalan Akta Guaman Syarie demi kebajikan semua peguam Syarie
di negara ini. Tapi kita perlu terus bergerak dan masa yang sama tertakluk
kepada Perlembagaan.
5. Dalam Sivil, ada beberapa peringkat Mahkamah Sivil iaitu Mahkamah
Magistret, M/Sesyen, M/Tinggi, M/Rayuan dan M/Persek! utuan. Lepas tu ada
hukum binding precedent iaitu ikat mengikat. Keputusan Mahkamah Rayuan
megikat Mahkamah Tinggi ke bawah. Keputusan Mahkamah Persekutuan akan
mengikat semua Mahkamah dalam memutuskan isu dan kes yang hampir sama atau
sama.
6. Sebelum ni, kalau ada kes diputuskan di Mahkamah Syariah, orang
yang tak puas hati boleh pergi ke Mahkamah Sivil untuk merayu menyemak
keputusan Hakim Mahkamah Syariah. Katakan Ali bercerai dengan Minah dan
harta diputuskan 50:50 antara mereka. Anak diputuskan custody pada Emak
(Minah). Tetapi Ali tak puas hati boleh pergi ke Mahkamah Sivil, merayu dan
Mahkamah Sivil boleh buat keputusan lain menyebabkan keputusan Hakim
Mahkamah Syariah seoa! lah-olah dibuang dalam tong sampah, tidak ada harga
lagi.
7. Selepas perjuang orang2 terdahulu dari kita, mendesak Kerjaan dengan
political will mereka, masa Dr Mahadhir masa tu, Parlimen berjaya meminda
Artikel 121 mengenai kedudukan Mahkamah. Ditambah pindaan menjadi Artikel
121 (1A) iaitu keputusan Mahkamah Syariah tidak boleh diganggu gugat oleh
Mahkamah Sivil. Tetapi orang undang-undang ada yang pandai sangat dan
mencari jalan untuk mebuat tafsiran. Kerana Hakim boleh mentafsirkan dalam
penghakiman mereka dengan cara dan pendapat mereka.
8. Oleh itu apabila kes Lina Joy mula-mula pergi ke M/Tinggi. Hakim
Mahkamah Tinggi kata tak boleh buang istilah Islam sebelum dapat kebenaran
M/Syariah. M/Syariah ada bidangkuasa kepada semua urusan berkait dengan
keislaman dan hal-ehwal Islam. Tapi keputusan itu tak mengikat Mahkamah
lebih tinggi. Bila lina joy merayu lagi ke M/Rayuan, keputusannya tetap kata
M/Syariah kena putuskan dia bukan Islam baru boleh tukar istilah dalam IC.
Tapi masih tak selesai, sehingga dibawa ke Mahkamah tertinggi di Malaysia
iaitu Federal Court (M/Persekutuan) .
9. Apabila M/Persekutuan memutuskan semalam, ianya adalah kejayaan
kepada memartabatkan perundangan Syariah dan Mahkamah Syariah di negara ini.
Iaitu Mahkamah Sivil yang lebih rendah akan terikat dengan keputusan
semalam: Bahawa semua urusan keislaman, keluar masuk Islam, perkahwinan,
perceraian, adalah bidangkuasa Mahkamah Syariah.Mengesahkan Art 121 (1A).
Dengan itu sepatutnya tiada lagi kes boleh dibawa ke Mahkamh Sivil untuk
challenge isu yang sama atau hampir sama. Keputusan semalam sebenarnya
MENGIKTIRAF DAN MELETAKKAN BAHAWA SYARIAH COURT SETARA DENGAN M/SIVIL.
10. Kesan keputusan semalam membawa kepada perbincangan lain dan desakan
lain ke arah menambah baik dan pindaan kepada beberapa peruntukan dan
perlaksanaan Mahkamah Syariah.. Kepakaran Haki! m dan prasarana M/Syariah
dll. Peruntukan dalam Enakmen iaitu pihak2 yang boleh berurusan dengan
Mahkamah Syariah juga perlu ditambahbaik. ..Apabila satu pihak bukan Islam,
bolehkah masuk ke M/Syariah menjadi pihak yang bertikai kerana semua
Enakmen menyebut Enakmen ini terpakai kepada orang Islam sahaja yang
tinggal, bermastautin dalam negeri ....' Contohnya kes isteri masuk Islam,
suami tidak. Lelaki islam, wanita tidak. Bagaimana dengan masalah custody
anak, harta sepencarian suami isteri dll..Termasuklah pindaan kepada Seksyen
51 Law Reform Act. Kita juga perlu mendesak b/kuasa M/Syariah perlu ditambah
iaitu semua urusan ekonomi Islam perlu duduk di bawah M/Syariah kerana ia
melibatkan Islam dan urusan keislaman..Banyak lagi kerja kita dan JIM dan
ACCIN perlu ke arah itu.
11. Jika semlm berpihak kepada Lina Joy, ia umpama membuka floodgate
kepada penghinaan terhadap M/Syariah. M/Syariah tidak ada kedudukan dan
tidak akan dihormati. Orang bukan Islam dan orang murtad boleh menidakkan
langsung kedudukan M/Syariah dan kesannya yang lain seperti saudara baca
dalam pamphlet yang dikeluarkan oleh PEMBELA.
Disertakan press statement PGSM
!
KENYATAAN AKHBAR
Persatuan Peguam Syarie Malaysia (PGSM) mengalu-alukan keputusan kes Lina
Joy yang diumumkan pada hari ini oleh Mahkamah Persekutuan di Putrajaya.
Keputusan tersebut memberi pengiktirafan kepada kredibiliti Mahkamah Syariah
dan Undang-Undang Islam. Mahkamah Sivil yang tertinggi di Negara (Mahkamah
Persekutuan) telah memutuskan bahawa penentuan berhubung dengan agama Islam
hendaklah dibuat oleh Mahkamah Syariah dan bukan Mahkamah Sivil. Keputusan
ini telah menunjukkan bahawa Mahkamah Sivil dan Mahkamah Syariah saling
lengkap melengkapi antara satu sama lain (complementing each others) dan
tidak bersaing antara satu sama lain (competing with each others).
Mahkamah Sivil dan Mahkamah Syariah masing-masing mempunyai bidangkuasanya
tersendiri mengikut undang-undang dan mereka tidak boleh saling menggugat
antara satu sama lain. Keadaan unik ini hendaklah di pelihara oleh setiap
masyarakat yang cintakan keamanan di Malaysia .
Keputusan ini telah mengelakkan keadaan kucar-kacir masyarakat khususnya
tatkala pihak berkuasa agama ingin melaksanakan undang-undang Islam
sebagaimana yang telah diperuntukkan kepada mereka.
Adalah diharapkan bahawa keputusan ini akan dapat menyelesaikan kemelut yang
sering melanda masyarakat Malaysia dan segala persoalan berhubung dengan
kedudukan mahkamah syariah dan agama Islam di sisi Perlembagaan Persekutuan
telah dimuktamadkan.
PGSM menggesa seluruh rakyat Malaysia menerima keputusan ini dengan hati
yang terbuka dan bersama-sama melihat masa depan Negara kita dengan aman
damai dan saling hormat menghormati antara satu sama lain.
Warisan
To Daphne Ling,
Here is one virtual rotten egg for your mentality of fear, which is unfortunately, very Malaysian of you.
First of all, for a society to progress from one state to another (such as from slavery to freedom, or from discrimination to equality), there will be a few cases that cause uproars, discomfort and yes, even riots. Else, we will all be still believing that the sun goes around the earth! The blacks would still be extremely discriminated if not for one black woman who refused to give her seat away coz it was simply her right to sit where she likes even if its in the white part of the bus! Women will still be under the thumb of men, and not allowed to vote! Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Got my drift?
Therefore, it is cowardly to state that we should be accepting when an injustice is carried out before our own eyes. Coz..husshhhh...we do not want an uproar...
Whether you like it or not, here it comes....
To Bakaq,
Your argument is fundamentally flawed because of your belief that for a Muslim to disbelieve, he/she must get permission from some higher force, i.e your shariah court.
If God exists, if God is the most superior force in the universe, and if God made men and women based on his/her logic, then the freedom to change minds also comes from God. Who are you, or your courts to tell otherwise?
Personally, I don't believe that there is one external entity called God, that balances the cheque book on every human being. But you may call that a choice with God's blessing also.
Hi everyone. In all of this episode we have centred our arguments/points on the constitution and Islam and rights.
But when you really sit down and think about it - all Lina Joy is asking to be left alone and be happy. To be happy with her loved ones. Everybody deserves to be happy, whether you are rich, poor, old or young.
I don't know why but I feel sad for her.
Take care all.
Pardon me here, but as far as I understand, Nyonya Tahir was dead when her status was questioned. They couldn't try to rehabilitate nor counsel her anyhow. That makes her case easier to settle, doesn't it?
The example of Nyonya Tahir should not be juxtaposed with the Lina Joy case.
The Syariah courts had a win-win situation by ruling that Nyonya Tahir was not a Muslim simply because she is already dead ! You can incarcerate a dead person, but I'm sure the other folks in the rehab centre would object ....
Also, there was no NRIC issues to amend and lastly, it is good PR for the Syariah Court in that they are seen to be amenable, even if it is a dead person.
As a Muslim Convert myself I feel that although our country makes it almost impossible for a Muslim irregardles born or convert to convert to another religion of his or her own choice, they have actually created 'musuh dalam selimut' @ fox in sheep's clothing. Religion is 1 of the most sensative issues in Malaysia & if not handled well will create greater rift amongst the races! Every nite b4 I go to bed I always say a prayer praying that God will maintain peace in this beloved country of ours!
did she "sign up" at the syariah court? if she did, she should take responsibility for her action.
Some of the best comments originated from here.
We are all 'indoctrinated' differently through our childhood, religion, studies, career and even after-life. Back then, we were taught to celebrate our differences and to accept our uniqueness. What I see from Lina's case is just a reinforcement of a 'process' to choose her 'lifestyle'(can't say the 'R' word based on my indoctrination)kekeke.
It will be through her real belief and faith which she will be tested til Faith officers are satisfied they have done all they could 'to save a soul'. I believe some of us perceive it differently but it is actually the same thing in most Faiths. Say, if you're a strong believer in your Faith, you have been indoctrinated that it is your 'duty/mission' is to save as many possible soul from going to the depths of Hell/Purgatory/etc, wouldn't you be trying to 'save' Lina Joy too?
Of course the overtones such as 'punishment for apotasy' is over-rated with 'death threats' and 'treason'(which is still death btw). We shouldn't be emotional inorder to focus on the issue at hand.
Since the decision has been made by the court of law, there are due processes which Lina will have to go through to get what she's after. It is not an 'attack' on anything or anyone neither an 'insult' to any Faith because it norm for us to question ourselves. It's just a process made clear to everyone.
We should all respect each other, learn to accept who we are and just maybe, we could celebrate our differences.
Variations based on a common theme!
I thanked Marina for allowing us to voice our opinions here and Bakaq for taking his time to enlightened us.
penarik beca,
and when did Lina Joy go to Syariah Court to say that she "sign in" to Islam? If you never sign the paper of marriage certificate, how do you sign the divorce paper?
Vasu will you please do us a favour and THROW THE EGG AT YOURSELF? Daphe is right. We are not ready for this. For all this black people who did whatever they did, there was a lot of bloodshed and disrest and war. You want all this in Mmalaysia? Maybe you go live in Afghan? We need to work to a time and place where we can all accept things as we are, and not have to resolve to disrest. ANyway, what I reallllly didnt like was the unwarranted "accusation" of her being a typical Malaysian. Sorry if you have been a katak under the termpurung, but Daphne is somthing that Malaysia should be proud of. I wouldn call that typical Malaysian. Here's one very very veyr rotten and disgusting egg thrown at you Vasu!!!!!!!!!
I want to add that we must leanr to settle things right and we must all learn to become advanced people with advanced mentality first before we can even stand up adn fight this kind of things. Hello? If the Malays cannot even accept that their special rights is actually just a special position, you think they can accept a malays converting to chrsitian? If the malays cannot even hear people talk about their hak orang melayu without gettign angry, there will be big fight between the christian and muslims if lina joy is allowed to convert. YOu need to chnage that mentality first. We dont need another May 13. So yeas, please throw another rotten egg at your own self for such a stupid statemnt.
Dear Vasu,
What do you mean by the words; freedom, equality and injustice.
Any guideline in defining them or you just throw everything you think logic out from your mind.
What do you think about the issue such freedom of abortion and equal right of same sex couple as others?
Do you think by responding to this issues logically and 'just' can make a society 'progress'.
TJ
Folks, let's keep it civilised please. No name-calling please! Thank you.
Vasu, Sir (and also others)
i sincerely agree my arguments are flawed. That is the only analogy i can think, at least up to this moment. Sorry la, kawan-kawan!
About the Syariah court, i am just referring to the procedure needed. As dearest Datin herself know (if she remember what i told her), i have my own remorse feeling about those JAKIM, jabatan agama, whatever.
But... i cant change that procedure, whether i like it or not.
Please dont forget, BN will continue to rule. They just need to count votes from Sabah, Sarawak and Johor to get simple majority (first, and after that maybe landslide victory or whatever).
My non Muslim friends,
i admit, i am strongly against murtad, apostasy, whatever people call. i cant accept apostasy as much as you cant swallow that 2-1 decision. But, at the same time, i am trying to be emphatic. If i cant accept apostasy, i must learn to understand you also cannot accept that 2-1 decision or things like that. i may fail, but i'm still trying.
Dear All,
it is obvious that the majority in this country still feel very strongly about their brethren opting out of the official creed, even the ones who drink, fornicate and gamble will be outraged had Lina Joy been able to get her way and compel the NRD to delete Islam from her mykad.50 years on, we are only at the separate but equal stage, can you imagine kids of the different races still dont know the basics of each other's culture? for this i think parents and the schools are to blame for their fear of integration. muslims in this country still feel the need to regulate each others behaviour with respect to their religion, hence the need for all these snooping squads. this is something the rest of us are not used to because we see religion as a personal thing, a contract of faith between yourself and GOD. if one has lost their faith, and has tried to regain in the same religion but failed or finds it again in another creed, should we not be happy for them? why the fear that if Lina had succeeded, the floodgates of apostasy would open? have ye no faith in your brethren?
i view with sadness, at the recent cases where the national creed seems to have superceded the sanctity of family and the dignity of the departed. to wrest away the body of indian man, from his devoted widow on the alleged claim that he had somehow professed to believe in Islam? now that would seem cruel and insensitive, epsecially when the rest of us are always advised (sometimes sternly) to tiptoe with care and sensitivity on these topics. how is it that this late national hero, managed to stay with his indian wife for so long without prosecution from the apt authorities? the same can be said about the family of rubber tappers torn asunder by a learned religious court. these are some of the recent events that caused some of us to wonder where is the justice and fairness in the national creed when family ties can be severed just with a court decision?
to the rest of us it seems the national Creed overules all other human concerns.
To jo-d,
Bloodshed is one way. Diplomacy is another. I personally am a follower of Gandhi's style of making changes...however, even followers of Gandhi got trampled upon (literally). So, yes, I would expect some form of aggression, mostly from fanatical keris waving islamists (there are many forums out there calling for malays to go hunting for lina joy's head..just google for "lina joy murtad").
No society can go on living in a limbo. Change eventually comes, like it or not, whether towards justice or more injustice. Whether it's today or 100 yrs from now, this is guaranteed. Having a forum like this that invites debate is already a major part of it. So brace yourselves...
btw, the sun does not (DOES NOT!) go around the Earth...
To shed some light-hearted break in this hotly-debated issue, may I ask Datin Marina's permission for me to "berjarum-jarum" with potential 'father-in-law-to-be' the 'Rigshaw-Puller': Is your 20-something daughter still single? :)
Bakaq, with every comment you post, my respect for you grows. It is so rare to find anyone who is willing to try and empathise with people who have different opinions from them. If only there were more of you.
Pemandu kereta kuda, I have no idea what your comment is about.
saya setuju dengan bakaq. kepada penyokong yang bangkang keputusan 2:1.freedom, equality and injustice yg bagaimana diharapkan. 2u sdra Vasu. banyak negara memberikan kebebasan kepada penghuni buminya untuk berkahwin lelaki dengan lelaki, perempuan dengan perempuan, manusia dengan binatang, manusia dgn pokok (di India aishwarya rai)dll. kebebasan dan persamaan yg begini kah. atau mahu kes clinton dan monicka. tanpa kahwin melakukan seks di atas nama kebebasan.
jo-d: isunya bukan agama melayu. isunya agama islam. ini perlu kita bezakan. dalam dunia ini tidak ada agama yg bernama melayu.ok, anak anda berada di rumah sebelum jam 8 mlm. anak jiran selalu balik jam 1 atau 3 pagi. anak jiran mengajar anak anda mengikutinya setiap hari melepak sampai subuh. adakah anda setuju atas nama kebebasan. disiplin dalam rumah anda adalah hak anda. kenapa perlu ikut saranan anak jiran anda? let's be very frank.
as far i'm concern, "sign in" to Islam terjadi bila ibu dan bapa yg bersetubuh melahirkan lina joy adalah islam. diazan dan di qamatkan. sepertimana ibu dan bapa anda adalah kristian, hindu atau buddha. seperti juga anda, ada sijil lahir sepertimana juga lina joy ada sijil lahir. itu sebabnya kerajaan prihatin tentang perkara ini (ada mahkamah berkaitan islam ) kerana akan terjadi kes sepertimana lina joy. sepertimana ada kawan saya penganut hindu makan daging lembu, penganut buddha minum minuman keras memukul anak dan isteri sehingga masuk hospital, berjudi sehingga bercerai dsb. jadi dalam semua agama masing-masing ada penganutnya yg lemah.
kita patut berterimakasih kerana kehidupan di malaysia dari segi relaiti hubungan kaum masih baik berbanding dengan negara thai, filipina, australia, amaerika, england, india dan banyak negara lain yg setiap hari bermandikan darah, dirogol, dikerat dsb.
apa-apa masalah boleh dibincangkan selagi akal masih waras.
I was sleepless after carefully reading all the comments after yout purposefilled posting.
This morning, I realised why I was so disturbed.
It was because you said you wanted to confuse those who thought Islam is not as negative as they thought.
I have refrained from commenting on religious issues for a long time as I believe that if God is God, we must let God be God.
But in this instance, I need to ask you a sincere question, do you not think that in this country, Islam has been wrongfully linked to politics, race, business, law and many other aspects of our lives?
Many non-muslims have already been confused in this country, I am saddened that you said your intention is to confuse those who misunderstood Islam.
I hope I am wrong, because I have respected you for a long time.
Cut the crap. Islam has always been a religion of oppression...witness the havoc it wreaked in India on the non violent Indians whose country it invaded. If you think that was long ago, look at the Taliban. It still exists in Afghanisatan and Pakistan (where it began) and is now growing in Malaysia (under the name of RELA, Jabatan Agama and ketuanan Melayu). If you really want to be a muslim, what you are seeing is the true face of Islam...not the "social" face you speak about in the USA, etc. It is time for the Western world to wake up and realise that it has been duped by the idea of equal rights for muslim immigrants. When it does no doubt Malaysia will be willing to accept it share of ex-Arab goat-herders. Salam to you all!
What do you think about the issue such freedom of abortion and equal right of same sex couple as others?
If you take panadol for your headache its same as the actions above.... means you made a choice to relieve your headache rather than let nature takes its course!
if you don't get what i say go take a panadol and think about it until you get a headache..... hahaha
I am a convert (revert?) to Islam from Christianity. I cannot foresee any reason why I would ever go back. Having said that, I do not understand the controversy of someone wishing to "go the other way".
I want to blame the education process or the extremism of some ulama or the seeming hypocrisy of some politicians or literal takes on the Quran or the subjective use of hadith or the mix of religion and state (or a combination of the above).
But in the end, we have to face facts. There are reportedly 1.2 Billion Muslims in this world. Rich, poor, educated, uneducated, practising, non-practising... No matter how good the education level, the balanced interpretation of the Quran or hadith, secular govt or theocratic, there will always be some who think there is a better life elsewhere. It is human-nature and is called "free-will" - something given only to humans by Allah.
(There is a well-known website where supposedly Malay kids explain why they are leaving or want to leave Islam and when you read the reasons you know they are actually excuses. Any old thing to justify what they have likely already done.)
It is not treasonous to leave Islam. Islam has not been threatened - it exists even if there is no one left on earth. There are no secrets that can be shared with the enemy - Islam is very open.
So why there is this fear when one or two of the 1.2 Billion desire to leave is difficult to comprehend. Islam is not a club that will fold should a quorum not be met.
Let them go - you don't want to mix with them then oklah - but work harder with your own kids, family, neighbours, friends to make sure they understand what Islam is - and that it has nothing to do with that little plastic smart card.
It would appear that whenever religion is brought into the discussion, emotion will not be too far behind.
In my personal opinion, the decision last week, no matter from which angle one looks, at the end of the day, is a lose-lose for all Malaysians.
Let's put religious considerations aside for a moment, and consider this simple question:
Do we believe that all Malaysians should have the same rights irrespective of their ethnicity, gender and/or religion?
And it is with this question in mind that you should consider the implication of the decision announced last week.
To Jo-D - Your emotion and anger is showing. Please be more objective and your communication will become clearer. When someone disagrees with you, don't use derogatory words like "stupid". As to your statement that "we must all learn to become advanced people with advanced mentality first before we can even stand up and fight this kind of things", I am not sure what you mean. Are we not advancing our "mentality" by discussing this topic of apostasy? At what stage of "advancement" should we speak up, or is it best to suppress the disquiet of the non-Muslims lest the Malays run amok? (No, the majority won't, the minority that would resort to violence is not likely to take part in this forum.)
An open discussion allows this disquiet to be expressed, the objective is to reach a greater understanding, of correcting erroneous thinking and ignorance. Whenever this freedom of expression is suppressed, anxiety escalates to fear and fear finds its expression in violence.
Coming back to the verdict on Lina Joy, my feeling is not of anger but of sadness. I am sad for Lina because she cannot practise her faith openly. It is for this reason that she wanted her religion to be officially recognised in her identity card. I admire her courage for doing this. Why didn't she take her case to the syariah court? The most simple reason is because, as FK said correctly, that the states (Malacca, Perak, Trengganu, Selangor, Johor, Kedah) legislates punishment for apostates including confinement for rehabilitation for 6 months, a fine (the amount of the fine varies in different states), a jail sentence (the number of years also vary), or both fine and jail.
Her lawyers must have known that there are very few cases that have been allowed to leave Islam officially through the Syariah Court. If I was in Lina's shoes, I too would have taken my chances with a secular court.
On this issue of apostasy the Malays perceived it as a threat to Islam. Are they afraid that the flood-gates would be opened for mass conversion out of their religion? I think that a person who feels this way has little faith in his own belief, and is far too emotional to be able to think logically.
If the Quran explicitly states that "Let there be no compulsion in religion (verse 256 of Sura al-Baqara)" how do an objective observer makes sense of these events?
1. Lina, born in a Malay family, cannot choose another religion unless it is sanctioned by a religious court which criminalises apostasy. Is a person born into a belief system, or is it because the parents indoctrinate their children to follow their belief? How much freedom was given to the children to choose their own religion when they reach an age of maturity? A person of true faith does not accept doctrines uncritically. And a religion worthy to embrace will be able to withstand critical examination.
2. Now we have a Zulhadi Omar, who is Chinese but regarded as a Muslim due to a swap at birth 29 years ago to a Malay family, also want to renounce his Malay name and Muslim religion. Should he be treated like Lina?
3. Subashini Rajasingham, a Hindu wife was effectively told to submit to the jurisdiction of the Syariah Court and seek recourse through the Syariah Appeals Court to stop her Muslim convert husband from converting their children without the wife’s permission. Can Muslims expect a non-Muslim to submit to the the Syariah Court? How can children at such a young age decide whether they should follow their father's or their mother's religion? Isn't it better to teach the good values of both parents' religions and let them decide later when they are mature enough to do so?
4. The case of Shamala, a Hindu, fighting custody over her children, age 2 and 4, with her former Hindu, now Muslim, husband. The Syariah Court had issued a warrant of arrest against the wife for failure to attend the Syariah Court when the husband filed custody over the children. This is yet another case of the husband wanting to convert the children to follow his religion in order to gain custody of the children, against the wishes of his former wife.
5. The plight of a Malaysian woman, Revathi or Siti Fatimah, who has been forcibly separated from her Hindu husband and 15-month old baby girl on the grounds of her religion.
6. In Malaysia a non-Muslim has to embrace Islam if the other party is a Muslim in an inter-religious marriage, otherwise the marriage is not recognised by the Malays. Isn't this another form of compulsion?
I believe that Islam will not be lesser if there are Muslims who decide to change religion. Isn't it the same Almighty God that taught Islam to the Muslims, Christianity to the Christians, and Judaism to the Jews? However, the Malays in Malaysia are the losers, for displaying their weakness and shallowness of thought.
I wrote my comments at about 2am in the morning. Towards the last paragraph sleepiness laid her hands on me. Now that I am re-reading my comment, I hasten to apologise to my Malay friends for the derogatory final sentence. The Malays, whom I perceived to be weak, are the ones who feel threatened by this discussion. They are not the ones who, like Marina, openly welcomed intellectual discourse.
I am hopeful that all Malaysians will stand tall equally one day, as long as there are Malays like Marina, Farish A. Noor (http://www.othermalaysia.org/), M. Bakri Musa (http://www.bakrimusa.com/), Mohamed Azam Mohamed Adil (http://www.bepress.com/asjcl/vol2/iss1/art6/), Malik Imtiaz Sarwar (http://malikimtiaz.blogspot.com/), and I am sure many more whom it would be a pleasure to meet.
MarinaM, If I may, tumpang lalu to Vasu...Thanks in advance...
Dear Vasu,
I would like to reiterate that freedom of religion ranks very hihgly in my books...I would also like to re-state one thing:-
I think the time is not right because we are not ready...That doesnt mean we will never be ready, you know?
Let me give you one very simple example...
If at the year 1900, America had told Malaya that it was ready for independence, and to fight for it, chances are, there would be a lot of bloodshed, and riots...Because the people of Malaya would not be ready for the kind of negotiation it took later on when we achieved independence in 1957...
Does that mean freedom/independence was less of a right in 1900 and more of a right in 1957? ?
The answer is no...
Does it mean that freedom/independence means less or more in 1900 and 1957 respectively?
In a way, yes...
Because we were ready for it...The poeple were ready as a nation, and the leaders were ready to rebuilf the nation with their people...
Had it been we had gone ahead and fought for independence (with the kind of leaders and mentaility in 1900), I am bold enough to say we might not have come this far...I am bold enough to say we would have been weaker as nation (at that time) and chances are high we would be re-colonised...
Because we were not ready...
That doesnt mean freedom and independence was any less of a right...
That's what Im saying here...
We have come so far in time, and we don't fight fire with fire...We need to educate the people, and when the people's mindset ahve chnage, it will be the Muslims who will stand up and say: Let us amend the consititution...
ANd when that time comes, freeedom of religion will turly be a reality...
Jo-D, despite his/her anger is right...Allowing Lina Joy to change her religion now when the people are still so divided in their thinking, can result in another May 13...
Dear Vasu, you can hurl abuse left and right and throw rotten eggs at me, but I'd rather have rotten eggs than another May 13, all because the people are not ready...
I dont know about you...
Daphne Ling
PS: The black lady you're refering to, her name is Rosa Parks...Address her by her name if you want to use her as an example...She deserves it...
just to share, for those who r interested:
Lina Joy – English Translation of the Majority Judgment
http://juslo.blogspot.com/2007/06/lina-joy-english-translation-of.html
There will be real equality and freedom of choice when the states accord every baby born a freedom of choice of religion when this baby reaches a maturity age of 16 at least.
Agree, there should be no compulsion. Also, no point in having compulsion at all. You have the number but no substance inside. By then you will really see the solidity of the foundation of each respective religion. Those who try to use force, privilege of birth, compulsion will just disappear into oblivion.
I would like to ask Vasu & others who do not understand Islam to find out what ISlam actually is. Even Marina herself. Islam itu indah, Allah itu penyayang, dan Allah juga boleh membalas segala kejahatan kite. That's why ada hukum untuk yang murtad - supaya kite melaksanakan hukum Allah di dunia. Kalau kes Lina Joy diambil mudah bermakna mahkamah bersubahat membenarkan 'pencabulan' hukum ISlam. Tapi kalau dah mmg pilihan Lina, then be it, Allah akan membalasnya sbb kite tak melaksanakan hukum hudud kat sini. Tapi her parents sgt sedih, nnt kat akhirat mungkin x bersatu lg. maybe LIna dh lupe all dat! *sigh
I am not a good muslim, I've sinned. and i'm so scared of what will Allah send to me, but each day I ask for forgiveness n do good things, with a hope Allah will forgive me because He is the most merciful. But we dun take it for granted. to all non-muslims, jgn sampai menghina Islam, ingatla anda juga pada fitrahnye ialah seorg muslim. Roh anda mengaku Allah itu Tuhan mu. Tapi selepas keluar dr alam roh dan dari perut ibu, anda lupa pada janji Allah yg telah anda percayai semasa di alam roh. Carilah kebenaran sebelum terlambat. Tiada yg buruk dlm Islam, tiada yg rugi dengan mencari ilmu!
Hi there,
Just came across your blog!
I actually wrote an article a while back on the No Compulsion In Religion verse for my liberal Islam site. If you're interested, it's at http://liberalislam.net/law.html
Zeeshan
from Bangladesh
Post a Comment